To answer your question Marcus, no it doesn't mean you can get only 1 Quest at once, it just means that you can't get a new Quest before at least 3-5 turns after the last one you were proposed.
In total you can get maximum 5 Quests at once.

Regarding Quests from Dwellings the 1st time you meet them, in theory if you had no Quest in the last 5 turns and you know only that Dwelling, they should propose you one pretty fast. If you know many cities and Dwellings, then there is a big chance that another city or Dwelling will propose you a Quest.
The game prioritize the sources closest to your armies. So if you're right next to the Dwelling, it should be it that give you the Quest.

Asking for a Tribute resets the cooldown to buy an independent entity so what you describe cannot work: you can't ask for a Tribute then buy to Absorb.
But you can ask for a Tribute then declare war and take control.

Hi Hiliadan, Hi Marcuspers,

thanks for your answers. I wanted to make clear that dwellings do not necessarily offer you a (peace) quest immediately, as someone could understand reading Hiliadan's answer.
My problem then is "How long will it take until it offers a quest"? So I guess if you're very unlucky, it can take 4 or 5 turns. And that wait is costly...

Two more questions: 1. Does anyone have experience with dwellings that aren't offering you a peace quest from the beginning? Maybe it is really only, if you accepted a quest shortly before.


My other question is not directly related but still about vassals: If I have a very happy vassal (Let's say happiness around 1000 or even higher), then doesn't it make sense to ask for troops, gold or mana right before I buy it to add it to my empire? Maybe it's even worth if the vassal is not as happy, as long as it stays a vassal?

I am aware, that it costs more if they are less happy, but isn't that increased price less than the value you get, in most cases?
Never tried it, though.

Very good question Zytozid, I'm happy Hiliadan investigated a bit, because I didn't know. My gut feeling would be 3-4 turns after it became available to buy peace/vassal, based on experience on previous games. I had a game where dragons offered quest 3 times for vassal, and I declined 2 times and the 3rd time I took the quest. Between the quests was approx. 4-5 turns.

"There is a global cooldown on Quests so if you got one on turn X, you cannot get another one before X+Y turns. Y = between 3 and 5."

A question for Hiliadan, are you saying its not possible to have more than 1 quest at the same time, I think I have memories of several quests at the same time (obviously not from the same source).

Ok I just checked in the mod tools, you get a Quest about every 8-12 turns from a same source. There is a global cooldown on Quests so if you got one on turn X, you cannot get another one before X+Y turns. Y = between 3 and 5.
But basically, you get your 1st Peace Quest, then a Vassal Quest 4 turns after you complete the 1st (when it can talk to you again), then another Quest 6 turns after you complete the 2nd (when it can talk to you again and you can buy it).
I would say that if it didn't give you a Quest when you can buy it, it means you won't get one before some time (probably because another source gave you a Quest more or less at the same time).
By the way, I found back the post from Gloweye: http://aow.triumph.net/forums... Noting some stuff, to create a page about Quests on the Wiki later:
- "I also noticed that once you got around 6 vassals, dwellings I had peace with didn’t give me quests anymore. Once I bought those vassals, I got new ones from quests."
- all the content of this post: http://aow.triumph.net/forums... />- from the mod tools:
* Quest Difficulty setting: value/required military value
** Very Easy: 100/0
** Easy: 150/400
** Medium: 300/600
** Hard: 600/800
** Very Hard: 40000/1000

New topic: XP optimization
I encourage everyone to read this page of the Wiki: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia... />What I generally do is to let my high tier units (and especially the heroes and leader) hit  and then keep the killing blow for lower tier units. Indeed, hitting with a T1 means it gets only 1 XP per blow, so 3 XP if it gives 3 hits (let's say ranged, thus without retaliation XP), whereas a hero would gain 3x3 = 9 XP from the same hits (arguably causing more damage). It thus makes more sense to let high tier units hit. But the killing XP depends on the tier of the dead, not the killer, so it makes sense to give it to low tier if you want them to level up.

About vassals/quests:

if a city offers a peace treaty or vassalization but NOT a quest and there has not been a quest before, is there some way to know when they will offer a quest or is it random?

E.g. are quest offers following a clear structure? gameplay example:

I meet a city that offers peace immediately, I accept. A few turns later (4 I guess) they offer vassalization. I could accept immediately and pay but If hey offer a quest next round or in two rounds I'd maybe rather wait and take this.

Marcus, I hope you can share what you said to your team with everyone here ("and I have explained additionally why I think like I do to my team members in previous messages"), that's the whole point of the Academy game. We don't really care who wins or loses this game. We all win if more advice are exchanged and also if we have debates about the best strategies. There is no: "xx is wrong" here, our aim is to raise the overall knowledge of everyone in this game but also beyond this game, as everything will be shared on the Guide for AoW3. So all that is not directly strategic information (where your units are, what class/race you play, what are your plans in game) should be shared with everyone. In fact, in recent weeks, your team has shared nothing on the public game blog and that is not normal. Please don't share only with your team as it won't be integrated in the overall guide.
I'm actually happy when people (from my team or not) can point out the issues in the reasoning I present as it helps to improve them and provide more comprehensive info for the Guide.

To clarify what you meant, you mean the Race Happiness figures are OK but that the (Race) Governance experience is not taken into account, right? It's a good point, indeed I should add it to the calculation. However, you get as much Governance experience with a Vassal as with a city you own (according to a test I just did). So the main difference will be linked to the time you need to get the Quests and complete them. So it makes more sense to attack if you know you won't be near your city when it gives you Quests.

Also to discuss another aspect. Sauna mentioned in the team blog that he sometimes attacked the closest city to get its production and snowball faster. I would argue the opposite: the Quests you do give you units, that are more useful to snowball than the extra income (gold, mana, research). Snowball is based more on units than on income. Though you can indeed produce some units in the city after your absorb it, but I'm not sure it's faster.
I guess one key aspect is really whether you can stay around to complete the Quests fast or not.

+ clearly if you're Necro (no Race Happiness, which is one of the main benefit of Vassaling) or going Pure Evil, it makes more sense to attack IMO.

Same here, away until sunday.

I will be away for the weekend (till sunday evening) and probably won't be able to play any turns, though I will try. Sorry for any delays caused.

@Zytozid: I agree. The day all the pros agree about everything is probably the day I will quit AoW3, since I hate playing games with cookie cutter strategies, counters and approaches.

Thanks for both opinions guys, it's good you argue about it, because it provides much more information than a simply one way best practice text. Both approaches do have their strengths.

Thanks!

Well, its in the interest for the new players, so I might add that the calculation Hiliadan did about the vassal city is wrong (and terrible wrong) "-50 Race Happiness instead of +30 for Vassal and +50 for absorbing", what you need to understand is that the race happiness to kill/take that city is correct. But you also get a higher "income" of racial governance once you take control of the city, and therefore in the long run will benefit of owning the city as opposed to have it a a vassal.

This is an academy game, hence the only reason why I reply to incorrect information.

Im not in the mood of argue, but I think both our stance are clear, and I have explained additionally why I think like I do to my team members in previous messages.

Good luck Hiliadan's team and be sure to ask questions so that your "captain" can explain further.

For a race that is not yours, the calculation is very different because you can very often migrate in 1 turn (2 turns with v1.22).

For a city of your race, I'm not sure to understand what you mean by "So, instead of counting like you did, count instead as your OWNED city, and not a vassal city, and the difference will be much smaller over a 10 turn period"?

Of course, if the city declared war on you, you should just take it. But if it is at peace with you...

What you gain by attacking:
- you get 100% of the income after 4 turns (absorb time) and probably more thanks to happiness > 200, instead of 80% (maybe less but that's unlikely given that you'll do Quests + it's starting race) if it's a vassal. The population also grow faster.
- you can produce units and develop the city

What you lose by attacking:
- a net 130 race happiness
- you also get a relationship malus with all independents whereas you would have had a relationship bonus by making Peace and Vassal
- regular Quests for free units
- more flexibility to recruit troops at times of need (ask for a Tribute)

Basically the 4 turns to get the Vassal Quest after the Peace Quest match the Absorption time, so you can get the Vassal at the same time as when you get the city absorbed. Of course, it will probably be slower because you will probably wait to get the Peace Quest, and take some time to complete the 2 Quests.

I agree that both strategies (attacking or not) are possible but if you're not specifically in "pure evil" and "I don't care about independent cities and Dwellings", then I still believe you gain more by not attacking (the main thing is the race happiness, which makes a big economic difference).