About vassals/quests:

if a city offers a peace treaty or vassalization but NOT a quest and there has not been a quest before, is there some way to know when they will offer a quest or is it random?

E.g. are quest offers following a clear structure? gameplay example:

I meet a city that offers peace immediately, I accept. A few turns later (4 I guess) they offer vassalization. I could accept immediately and pay but If hey offer a quest next round or in two rounds I'd maybe rather wait and take this.

Marcus, I hope you can share what you said to your team with everyone here ("and I have explained additionally why I think like I do to my team members in previous messages"), that's the whole point of the Academy game. We don't really care who wins or loses this game. We all win if more advice are exchanged and also if we have debates about the best strategies. There is no: "xx is wrong" here, our aim is to raise the overall knowledge of everyone in this game but also beyond this game, as everything will be shared on the Guide for AoW3. So all that is not directly strategic information (where your units are, what class/race you play, what are your plans in game) should be shared with everyone. In fact, in recent weeks, your team has shared nothing on the public game blog and that is not normal. Please don't share only with your team as it won't be integrated in the overall guide.
I'm actually happy when people (from my team or not) can point out the issues in the reasoning I present as it helps to improve them and provide more comprehensive info for the Guide.

To clarify what you meant, you mean the Race Happiness figures are OK but that the (Race) Governance experience is not taken into account, right? It's a good point, indeed I should add it to the calculation. However, you get as much Governance experience with a Vassal as with a city you own (according to a test I just did). So the main difference will be linked to the time you need to get the Quests and complete them. So it makes more sense to attack if you know you won't be near your city when it gives you Quests.

Also to discuss another aspect. Sauna mentioned in the team blog that he sometimes attacked the closest city to get its production and snowball faster. I would argue the opposite: the Quests you do give you units, that are more useful to snowball than the extra income (gold, mana, research). Snowball is based more on units than on income. Though you can indeed produce some units in the city after your absorb it, but I'm not sure it's faster.
I guess one key aspect is really whether you can stay around to complete the Quests fast or not.

+ clearly if you're Necro (no Race Happiness, which is one of the main benefit of Vassaling) or going Pure Evil, it makes more sense to attack IMO.

Same here, away until sunday.

I will be away for the weekend (till sunday evening) and probably won't be able to play any turns, though I will try. Sorry for any delays caused.

@Zytozid: I agree. The day all the pros agree about everything is probably the day I will quit AoW3, since I hate playing games with cookie cutter strategies, counters and approaches.

Thanks for both opinions guys, it's good you argue about it, because it provides much more information than a simply one way best practice text. Both approaches do have their strengths.

Thanks!

Well, its in the interest for the new players, so I might add that the calculation Hiliadan did about the vassal city is wrong (and terrible wrong) "-50 Race Happiness instead of +30 for Vassal and +50 for absorbing", what you need to understand is that the race happiness to kill/take that city is correct. But you also get a higher "income" of racial governance once you take control of the city, and therefore in the long run will benefit of owning the city as opposed to have it a a vassal.

This is an academy game, hence the only reason why I reply to incorrect information.

Im not in the mood of argue, but I think both our stance are clear, and I have explained additionally why I think like I do to my team members in previous messages.

Good luck Hiliadan's team and be sure to ask questions so that your "captain" can explain further.

For a race that is not yours, the calculation is very different because you can very often migrate in 1 turn (2 turns with v1.22).

For a city of your race, I'm not sure to understand what you mean by "So, instead of counting like you did, count instead as your OWNED city, and not a vassal city, and the difference will be much smaller over a 10 turn period"?

Of course, if the city declared war on you, you should just take it. But if it is at peace with you...

What you gain by attacking:
- you get 100% of the income after 4 turns (absorb time) and probably more thanks to happiness > 200, instead of 80% (maybe less but that's unlikely given that you'll do Quests + it's starting race) if it's a vassal. The population also grow faster.
- you can produce units and develop the city

What you lose by attacking:
- a net 130 race happiness
- you also get a relationship malus with all independents whereas you would have had a relationship bonus by making Peace and Vassal
- regular Quests for free units
- more flexibility to recruit troops at times of need (ask for a Tribute)

Basically the 4 turns to get the Vassal Quest after the Peace Quest match the Absorption time, so you can get the Vassal at the same time as when you get the city absorbed. Of course, it will probably be slower because you will probably wait to get the Peace Quest, and take some time to complete the 2 Quests.

I agree that both strategies (attacking or not) are possible but if you're not specifically in "pure evil" and "I don't care about independent cities and Dwellings", then I still believe you gain more by not attacking (the main thing is the race happiness, which makes a big economic difference).

Without going to deep into the strategy of any game, you are wrong in a few cases. Attacking a city CAN be beneficial, especially if the vassal (of your own race) is either evil/dont offer a quest/is very expansive to absorb, plus is easy to take, even without this exceptions, its normally not a VERY bad idea to take it by force. Getting a city from independent to your owned city can be a 10 (4+6) turn process. So, instead of counting like you did, count instead as your OWNED city, and not a vassal city, and the difference will be much smaller over a 10 turn period, and in a 50 turn game, you get the difference back in around turn 11-12, without being able to ask for favour, but having a higher income, building class upgrades and getting 100% instead of 60-80% income.

Btw, being of a different opinion just shows the multitude of strategies available in this amazing game.

Something that can be shared with everyone:
I think that attacking your own race is a VERY BAD idea! I did it once recently and I said: "never again". You have almost nothing to gain from it:

• -50 Race Happiness instead of +30 for Vassal and +50 for absorbing (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Race_Happiness), so a net loss of 130, which is huge and translates into -100 morale for all your cities of that race and all your troops in later stages of the game because you won't reach Very Happy as fast (you'll need 3 more cities to balance it basically), so that's less income, less critical, less Lucky (Shooting Stars, Lucky Cloverfield...)


• it takes 4 turns to Absorb a city of your own race, you can't Migrate it! So instead of getting a Quest around turn 5-8 and being able to vassal it around turn 9-15, you are going to waste 4 turns with NO INCOME to absorb it


• you waste the free unit(s) you'll get from the Quest

The Quest usually arrives about 4 turns after you make contact. Quests are a very good way to get free units and keeping a vassal near you is a viable and more flexible (you can ask them a tribute at almost any point, if you suddenly get threatened by an attack by enemies) strategy in general.

It crashed while it was downloading, went black and I got this windows message "AoW3.exe has stopped working" I recorded my turn but the windows message is not in the recording because i record only from the game source, so the screen just goes black, but that would be easy to forge so no real proof I'm afraid. Might have something to do with me alt-tabbing to spotify while it was loading though, I recognized that the picture in my recording always freezes for the time I don't have the recorded program open, so maybe it actually did load, just that isn't shown in the recording because when i switched to spotify it froze. I'm afraid we'll never know but I could reload and play my turn normally so all should be fine.